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Author Topic: *snif* A little sad...  (Read 4365 times)
JohnH
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« on: May 04, 2008, 01:09:35 PM »

We just got some awesome "new to us" gear - Mackie 24*8 board (1992 vintage), couple big Peavey speakers and a 150W 8 ch Peavey mixer to drive them.

The board will be out in the house before long, that's the excellent bit!  The sad bit is we have the perfect location for the new speakers, which would improve the WT's sound ten-fold and not alter the appearance of the fron tof the sanctuary one bit.  Problem is that the WT is located is right smack in front of and under the stage-right speaker.  The speaker is about 10-12 ft above and behind my mic and the keyboardists mic.  We're expecting feed back to be a huge problem.

We're going to run a test by getting the speaker in position and seeing just how bad the problem might be.  Maybe we'll get lucky.

There a many solutions but most of them just aren't good:
  • If we move back up on to the stage, behind the speakers (where we should be) there is a lot of setup/teardown involved because the traditional service don't like to see drums or other equipment on the stage (1-2 small fender 1210P monitors. Sad )
  • Move a kneewall, which separates the choir loft from the front part of the stage where the pulpit is and the paster and choir director sit during the service
  • remove one of the short pews in the choir loft and put the drums there, hidden by the kneewall so nobody would see them, and leave them setup all the time.
  • stay where we are and run instruments only through the kicking new speakers and put all the vocal through the PA Mains which are high above the pulpit (which is where all the sound comes out now.)  This is likely the solution that will keep the most folks happy.  What we'll have to do to achieve this is have multiple outputs from the board - use one of the groups (now that we finally have groups!! Grin ) to output the instruments only to the new Peaveys and use the L/R mains to output the vocals and speakers to the PA mains.

Ya know - I knew by writing this out for y'alls input and comments, it would make me feel a little better about the last, compromise, solution.  While I'd love the WT back on stage (and arranged like a real band instead of packed into a corner) and playing through the new speakers, I'm not so sad anymore about the compromise solution.

Thanks for listening!  Grin
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"God hears the song in your heart."
"Yeah.  But we have to hear you play."
Why Skill Really Does Matter - Ken Boer and Pat Sczebel
Corey
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 06:34:05 PM »

We get around the "drum" problem by using a Roland electronic set. Just pick up and go. Works real well for us.
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1954bassman
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2008, 01:34:46 AM »

John,

It is sad the folks in the second service don't want to see drums. That really comes off odd to me. i am not condeming, just odd, that's all. Anyway you could build a 'igloo' for the drums?
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Corey
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 01:50:43 PM »

Actually, there are a lot of the more conservative, or traditional churches that have a problem with drums on the podium. For them it is a holy place, and drums, being normally a loud percussive instrument, is just not worshipfull. It took me a lot of years to be comfortable with drums in church, but I still am not comfortable with them during the worship service itself. For me, (and this is not a putdown on anyone else) its a little hard to get into a quiet worshipful place where I can hear the 'still small voice', after loud, upbeat, music is played. I believe there is a time for that definately. And I believe the Bible says we should make a joyful noise, but even when the isrealites were closely following God, they didnt make every worship service one with dancing and singing and playing the tamborine.  Everything has its place, whether it is secular music, contemporary Christian music, or hymns, or just silent meditation-too much of one or another unbalances our lives, physically, mentally, and spiritually.
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JohnH
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 07:44:34 PM »

The neat thing is - everyone is right.  Time and a place for everything - including loud and soft music.  The drums are Yamaha DTXpress somethings - electronic and light and easy to move.  We've just grown accustomed to leaving them setup now - we moved them every week for over a year before just moving the band.  Now were crammed into a corner.  Still, we're getting the Message out and that's what matters.

We've kicked lotsa ideas around - one included moving some of the organ pipes in the loft to make room for speakers.  (Makes me nervous and I'd consult with the organ Co, first but, as a woodworker/engineer, the move wouldn't affect anything.)  Good news is we likely won't have to.  We're likely going to Hang 'Em High. Wink  I'd rather have them hidden behind the wall but, we'll see.

I set them up temporarily - they sound great.  I think they'll sound better up off the floor.

Speaking of drums not making one feel contemplative and worshipful, we played "Jesus, Thank You" this morning.  Wow.  Talk about getting one in a worshipful place.  This one really struck the WT.  We had to do it.  I got to sing a lot of the lead male vocalists parts.  First time.  Nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.  But, I digress, that for the playing & singing thread out there somewhere.

I think it was Bob Kauflin who pointed out that in a list of things to be done to praise the Lord, cymbals were mentioned twice - loud, crashing cymbals to be specific. Wink 
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"God hears the song in your heart."
"Yeah.  But we have to hear you play."
Why Skill Really Does Matter - Ken Boer and Pat Sczebel
Corey
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 07:54:13 PM »

Thats the point I was trying to make. There is a time for everything. The thing about our church is that there is a wide diversity in tastes and years. All the way from infants to a 96 year old lady. So, we try to be sensitive to all of them. Those who like the more contemporary music show up for the evening service and it seems to work for all. And the funny thing is, you would be surprized at how many of the really old generation show up in the evenings. My theory is they just like to hear music once in a while.      Grin Cool Roll Eyes
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2bhumble (Dave)
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 08:41:31 PM »

I am very happy that your church was able to up-grade the sound system. I hope that somehow something can be worked out to please everyone which is a hard thing to do, but with God all things are possible.
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JohnH
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 05:16:56 PM »

My theory is they just like to hear music once in a while.      Grin Cool Roll Eyes
Grin Grin Grin
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"God hears the song in your heart."
"Yeah.  But we have to hear you play."
Why Skill Really Does Matter - Ken Boer and Pat Sczebel
JohnH
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 05:25:32 PM »

I am very happy that your church was able to up-grade the sound system. I hope that somehow something can be worked out to please everyone which is a hard thing to do, but with God all things are possible.
That's one reason I'd like to hide it all behind the panels - but that involves some organ pipe relocation - just a few inches.  (It's a small rack and completely self contained - no rocket science just a little woodworking.)

It'll work out.  God has really blessed our team with an increasingly supportive session and a significant portion of the congregation as well.
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"God hears the song in your heart."
"Yeah.  But we have to hear you play."
Why Skill Really Does Matter - Ken Boer and Pat Sczebel
JohnH
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 04:20:30 PM »

Duplicate post from the "sound man" thread but, this really belongs here:

Had a great sound day last Sunday!

The new Peaveys are in temporary locations on the stage.  WT is located on the floor to the right of the stage (stage right).  One of the new speakers was about 12 feet behind the two guitars and the vocalists.  Keyboard is next closer but drums and I are tucked around the corner from the speakers. Can't see 'em. 

We put the drums, bass and guitars through the peaveys and the kybd and vocals through the mains (hung 25 ft at least above the pulpit at the peak of the church. I'm trying to find a picture.)

Anyway, rave reviews!  The sounds was great.  Our guitarists could hear bass and drums - and later themselves when my son added them into the mix.  Lots of good comments from the congregation, including the pastor. 

Just a beautiful morning.  We did Jesus, Thank You.  The front row vocalists said they could see people closing their eyes and singing, really worshiping.  That doesn't happen much but it's beginning to happen more often. 

Praise God!!

Oh, and you may remember that we cover our drums and keybd with a black cloth for everything except the contemp service.  Well - our preschool had their graduation on Thursday.  The principal wanted the ugly drums and kbd put away.  My wife, knowing how difficult it is to set set them up again and worried about damage convinced her that moving them was a bad idea.

Well...about a half our later one of the parents was walking around up front and saw the drums (despite the cloak of invisibility).  She turned to my wife and said "Oh!  Drums and keyboard - do you have a contemporary service??  I may come to that!" 

Lesson learned, don't cover up your advertising! Smiley

It struck me to day that all these people who think the drums are ugly and have no place in worship and should be covered or hidden are forgetting that He makes all things beautiful.  Look what He did for the cross, an instrument of the cruelest torture and yet, we make them of gold and adorn ourselves with them.

The Mackie - not installed yet. It's acting funny.  I talked to the guys we bought it from and he gave me permission to go ahead and open it up, reseat the ribbon cables, pc cards etc.  Just give it a good once over.
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"God hears the song in your heart."
"Yeah.  But we have to hear you play."
Why Skill Really Does Matter - Ken Boer and Pat Sczebel
Manbass
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 02:42:04 PM »

Great story.  Good luck with it.
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JohnH
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 04:56:53 PM »

Replaced all the ribbons in the Mackie with the latest (REV G) and soldered the power connector onto the meter board.

Solder job solved the floating signals on the meter/main board.  Yay!

Still have some signal problems on the 5/6 bus - Must not be the cables.

It took 16 hours overall to gut and reassemble the board but I loved every minute of it. Cheesy

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"God hears the song in your heart."
"Yeah.  But we have to hear you play."
Why Skill Really Does Matter - Ken Boer and Pat Sczebel
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